Tuesday, April 8, 2014

Ordaining Woes, Man!

With family on both sides of the LDS “Ordain Woman” issue, I figured I needed a little more drama in my life, so I may as well throw my hat into the ring and just tick off a few more folks.  As this is my first post into anything terribly controversial on my blog (besides my pronouncement that I really don’t like any of the ex-Beatles’ Christmas songs), I am prepared to lose both of my readers – easy come easy go. 

First I must openly declare that I make no claim to know the mind of God.  If I did, perhaps my Final-Four bracket would have looked much better.  This is merely my humble opinion; which of course means that I think I am right and will argue with anyone who disagrees with me.

So should woman be given the priesthood, the power to act and administer in God name?  It is a legitimate question.  One of the key restored truths highlighted on the Church’s own website is that we can become “kings and queens, priests and priestesses.”  Also, as Elder Oaks taught yesterday in conference, women administer the priesthood power in the temple.  We also know that the church has changed doctrines/policy on the issue of polygamy and blacks in the priesthood.  Finally, core to our faith is the teaching from James 1:5 that got this whole restoration started, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God.”  So to me it is legitimate for women, who think they are missing out on a good time here, to inquire of the Lord’s servants as to God’s will on this issue.  I hope we are all good so far.

My issue with the current approach of the ordain woman organization is the apparent riders added to the scriptures “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who shall doeth that which you shall demand lest ye make a public spectacle of yourself.”  (check the JST, it must be there).  It seems to me that this counselling God approach didn’t work so well for Joseph Smith, Martin Harris, and some 116 pages of a lost manuscript.  We can beg, plead, entreat, and supplicate before the Lord, but a hippy sit-in at the pearly gates?  That is not where I would put MY efforts.  Sometimes that answer is a firm “NO” or possible a “not now” with no further explanation other than “my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isiah 55:9).  I know a good salesman does not take “no” for an answer, but I am pretty sure a good prophet does (perhaps, like lawyers, there are not many salesmen in heaven).  On the other hand, if the brethren of the church are just not listening to God, then they will be held accountable for that, but I can’t see how our demands could change that.

By demanding a specific answer at the same time we pose the question to God presupposes either (1) we as mortals can command the Almighty, or (2) the church is an organization guided only by man and therefore man (or in this case “woman”) may dictate its practices.

Let’s talk about the first option first.  My kids don’t get to tell dad what to do; it just does not happen.  Those who have tried have found themselves up against a wall with a rather angry paterfamilias in their face.  I am guessing God might just be the same way.  “But wait, we know we can become priestesses, so why not now!”  Again, I have no idea why not now or ever, but I am pretty sure that the scripture does not read, “For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, but if you bug me enough, I will grow weary of your complaining and dump all of my truth on you on your schedule, because, you know, I am only a Supreme Being and I hadn’t really planned things out.” Sometime we have to wait, ask the children of Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years.  The ancient apostles of the Christ were looking for his second coming just after the resurrection - and we are still waiting.   From what I have seen, the leaders of the church heard this question of ordaining women, took it to the Lord, and the Lord said through his servants that in this dispensation he will administer his priesthood through men.  Sounds like an answer to me (again remember the lost 116 pages here).     

Now if you are a second option person who believes that the church is an organization of men that can be directed by the demands of its constituents, would this not suggest a false church of men?  In that case I can’t say there would any “real” authority from God to pass along.  So wouldn’t the request for this priesthood simply be that women want to pretend to have God’s power like the men do?  This sounds a bit like Dumbo’s feather that he is tricked into believing gives him the ability to fly, but in reality it is merely a farce. 

But let’s cut to the chase, the Priesthood is authority to perform ordinances to help others get back to the presence of God.  Holding the priesthood itself does not help the holder get into heaven (it actually seems to bring with it a higher level of scrutiny).  To the contrary, I think it is the meek and humble who will be inheriting the perfected earth.   By holding the priesthood you can’t baptize yourself or bless yourself or seal yourself.  Nope.  When you have the priesthood, it is an obligation to help and serve others.  It has no impact on your relationship with God or your own salvation.  So doesn't this demand contain a bit of pride in itself?  I personally would not want any bishop from the class of people who demand power be given to them.  Heck no! (can't swear in conference weekend)  I want the bishop who respond to such a call with “Who me?  You are obviously mistaking me for someone else, I am really not the right person.”  If I go into my bishop for screwing up, do I really want someone who tells me how ungrateful I must be for dishonoring the priesthood they fought so hard for.  I am not liking my chances for mercy from that person.  I guess for me, by demanding the priesthood, are you really qualified to hold it? (It is a bit like not being humble once you pronounce that you ARE humble - kind of a religious Catch 22)

Personally, I would not be bothered if woman were granted the priesthood.  That would cut the men’s workload in half.  They could collect fast offerings, attends loads of meetings, get dressed up at strange hours to administer to the sick, stress about messing up an ordination, be part of disciplinary counsels, enter tithing and donations into the computer, find speakers for sacrament meeting, and, oh yah, and move everyone into and out of the ward.  Hey, I’d love the help.  But for me and my house, we will choose to serve the Lord by patently asking for and receiving his revelation, line upon line and precepts upon precept, here a little and there a little and wait patiently for that glorious day when women can set up chairs side by side with men.

18 comments:

  1. Despite having plenty of page views, there have been no comments here. Feel free to chime in, I don't bite and will hopefully be respectful.

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  2. I was entertained. Thanks for helping my husband and I laugh. I don't think anyone who knows what a Stake Pres, Relief Society Pres, or Bishop really does would have ANY desire to hold those callings, let alone those keys, but maybe it's just because I'm struggling to manage the life I have and have yet to become amazing enough to manage something like that as well.

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  3. Not that long ago women couldn't pray in Sacrament meeting or General Conference. If no one had ever complained I don't think it would have changed. But this is just church policy and procedures. Fundamental doctrine is a different matter. Almost all of the revelations received by Joseph Smith were answers to questions. I don't think the revelation on blacks and the priesthood would have come if Pres. Kimball had not asked. Dallin Oakes hit the subject head on Saturday night. My impression was that the question has been asked (to God) and answered.

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    1. I think people should know that "Let women pray at General Conference" created a facebook page 1st of January 2013 (not sure when they actually began "lobbying") I know from the Assistant to the Quorum of the Twelve - who was my Mission President - that the Brethren had decided to assign prayers to women as soon as November 2012 upon realising that it was "unusual" women had not prayed at General Conference before. I've seen and read enough posts to finally want to share that.

      Regarding the blacks and Priesthood, the doctrine of the Priesthood did not change - only its application. Elder Oaks clarified the doctrine, trust the Lord to do what is in all of our best interests.

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  4. Wayne, I completely agree. I think it is important to ask ANY question (though I was once asked on my mission if the Holy Ghost has sperm - that one seemed to cross a line with me). I see no problem with people continuing to ask. But asking and protesting are too different things. The protest should be done upon ones knees either asking for changes in the church or asking for changes in oneself to understand and accept what is revealed.

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  5. Jeremy and Jami, glad you could have a laugh. I think it is important to laugh at everything it life, even the real painful stuff. That is how you get through it. I miss you guys and those sweet, busy little girls.

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  6. I enjoyed reading your post. You made some very good points. I have never felt the desire to hold the Priesthood. Thanks for putting it so well.

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  7. Very well stated. I love your views.

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  8. Brett-

    I appreciate that you dont come across in your blog as condescending to those that have a different view point of how things might be done in the church. I see your humor for what it is and that none of us should take ourselves too seriously. That being said, I for the most part side with the Ordain Women Movement. For people to completely discount their protests and state that the church isn't led by popular vote truly do not understand the history of the church. The church has changed policy as a direct result of social pressure (polygamy and the priesthood ban for black members). From what I have read the protestors were not disrespectful or violent or causing a major distrubance. The interesting thing here I believe is the history of the church and the priesthood ban for black members of the church. For years, the church stated that the priesthood ban was the will of the Lord and would not change. The recent statement put out by the church disavows all of those statements. With this precedent why couldn't the women of the church some day have the priesthood? Why not keep asking? I truly believe for the church to stay relevant at some point they will have to ordain women, or give them true leadership in the church. Since real leadership in the church can't happen without the priesthood I see a conundrum. Having the priesthood for women is about having an equal voice in the church. Think of all the leadership meetings where women do not have a voice, PEC, Bishopbric, High Council, those are just a few of the meeting and only at the Ward/Stake level. Isn't it weird that a woman has never had a vote in a church disiplinary council?
    I have been watching conference for many years, I have never seen on TV where it showed at the end of the last session all of the dutiful wives of the apostles come and join them as they left the conference center. Perhaps this has happened and I have not noticed because I wasn't looking for it, but it seemed like a very overt action on the church to say see, this is how women should act in the church, just like these dutiful, supportive wives of the apostles that stay in the background and dont create a ruckus.
    -Andy Salisbury

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  9. I (a woman) have sat in on many ward council meetings. The women in those meeting are consulted, trusted, and looked to with respect and admiration. I think if a woman REALLY wants to have the Priesthood then she can pray about it. Marching to temple Square was disruptive and to me it implies that they know better than the Prophet of God which is a scary position to be in. (see BOM) He walks and talks with God and its presumptuous (I have no idea how to spell that) to think that President Monson doesn't care or understand or hasn't asked.
    Why would any woman want to be a Bishop???? why oh why? we have so many responsibilities already that have been trusted to us and maybe we won't be grated anything additional until we are perfect in our visiting teaching haha
    . Growing up I didn't have the priesthood in my home, and several times when I needed a blessing I had to wait a very long time for missionaries or a ward member to come over (my ward boundries were pretty big in California) and I thought as I turned 18 , 'it sure would be easier if my righteous mother could give me a blessing" but after I got married I saw the heavy repsonsibity my husband had with holding the Priesthood and having to stay wothy at all times to give a blessing at any time. I also have kneeled in prayed with and for my children and have personally witnessed MIRACLES. I don't have to hold the Priesthood to be blessed by it every minute of the day.
    I found this blod through a friends facebook page and probly won't be able to find it again so any responses wont be read! but I appreaciate your original post!

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  10. My oh my! I think this issue may disguise the real problem. Isn't it that the dissenters think they know the mind of God more that the Lord's Prophet? The issue might as well be tithing, gay marriage and so forth. The spirit of contention accompanies their efforts, and this come from Satan, not God.

    May I offer a warning voice. In the Old Testament in the days when Moses when the Lord's Prophet, the priesthood was given only to the sons or Aaron and Levi. Not even Mose's sons got the priesthood. A prominent family went to Moses and demanded that they be given the priesthood also. An earthquake came and killed them all. On another occasion Moses' sister, Miriam and Aaron were in the temple murmuring against Moses. The Lord came to the temple and called Miriam and Aaron out of the temple. He then said: "If there is a prophet in Israel, I The Lord will make myself known unto him.... Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" (Numbers 12)

    I know, through revelation from God, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God. Our prophets have faithfully magnified their callings. Our responsibility is to sustain and support them, believing that the will of God is in our best interest and that God's Prophets and apostles faithfully follow God's will in all things. Elder Oaks' address carefully detailed this issue. As was stressed, men and women are equal partners. Our responsibilities might have a variance in focus, but the blessings of Heaven come in full measure to all who are faithful and obedient.

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    1. Where have those involved in the Ordain Women movement come out and said that they don't support the prophet? If that were the case they would take the priesthood upon themselves and begin performing ordincances etc on their own. Wasn't the restoration of the church built on asking the Lord a question? I am sure there were many people in the church who stated things very similar to what you are saying to those that supported Blacks receiving the priesthood prior to the ban being lifted, don't question, don't suppose to know the will of god etc. Can you please provide an instance where the church initiated change (something of sgnificance not just a change in the operations of the church) that was independent of social pressure? I can name several significant changes that occurred in great part due to social pressure ie polygamy-edmunds tucker act, word of wisdom becoming a commandment- prohibition, blacks and the priesthood - civil rights movment, church softening stance on homosexuality - backlash from Prop 8. - Andy

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    2. Ok, Andy. What's the issue with women that want the priesthood? Why do they feel they need to put pressure on the Prophet of God? If the President of our Church really is a Prophet of God, how much is pressure from people is really needed to enable revelation to the Prophet. President Kimball had been concerned for a long time before the revelation was given to blacks. His concerns came primarily from the mixture of heritages of new converts in South America. Was the threat of public outcry in the US really what put President Kimball on his knees in prayer? I think not. The word of wisdom being accepted as a commandment came from observations by President Brigham Young that many latter-day saints failed to live the law, demonstrating that counsel from the Lord was not enough for them in their condition of weak faith. President Young no doubt took the matter to the Lord and received counsel from Him - all without public outcry.

      Polygamy was rescinded only after all legal avenues had been exhausted. The Prophet took the matter to the Lord and was told that survival of the Church was the most important matter and authorized the announcement to the Church that polygamy was not to be practiced thereafter. This was not public outcry by members of the Church, but unconstitutional action by the government.

      Public outcry from these women demonstrates discontent with the established order of the priesthood. It also questions the concerns of the Prophet and apostles for women, suggesting a prejudicial approach to women. It also questions the entirety of published doctrine regarding women - including all scripture. Women have never been given the priesthood from Adam and Eve until now. These women contend against all the prophets that have ever been.

      This, by definition, is apostasy. Hence, it is dangerous to take the approach that we need to counsel the Lord's anointed. I believe that the Lord's anointed possess the love of God for all people and that they pray fervently for God's guidance in all things. The women that make a public spectacle of this issue are one small step from forming their own church, or joining a church that supports their beliefs. Watch and see. Kevin

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    3. thank you kevin for your comments. I stand behind you in defending the faith & listening to the words of our Prophet & his Apostles.

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  11. Jesus Christ, through His servant Dallin H. Oaks has spoken on the matter with clarity. I am satisfied and grateful.

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